HF does nondestructive editing?

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John Lai
Posts: 56
Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

HF does nondestructive editing?

Unread postby John Lai » 24.11.2007 05:23

I read on this site that HF does non destructive editing
For experts:

* RAW file support
* nondestructive editing

How? Can someone explain, I cannot find any topic on that.

John

lutz
Posts: 155
Joined: 14.04.2006 02:51

non-destructive

Unread postby lutz » 24.11.2007 10:02

Hello John,
non-destructive editing is realized mostly by these three features (to my knowledge:

- as true for most RAW converters; RAW files themselves are not manipulated or changed.

- If you start out with JPEGs, TIFFS or other non-RAW files, Helicon filter will, by default, also not overwrite your original files (of course you can force it to do so).

- Most importantly, HF remembers all edits by default and they can be undone or changed at any time (once you visit the "SAVE" tab ; even after restarting the PC) since they are saved as instructions on how to process the original (similar as if you would be able to solely use adjustment layers for all your edits in photoshop - however, this is impossible in PS). HF does not seem to store edited images internally . It will save an edited version only if you explicitly tell it to do so. This final edited version has of course manipulated data and it will be impossible from thereon to revert perfectly to the original (obviously unavoidable), but you still can edit the original image and your edit instructions in perfect freedom.
Last edited by lutz on 24.11.2007 20:56, edited 3 times in total.

John Lai
Posts: 56
Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Re: non-destructive

Unread postby John Lai » 24.11.2007 11:13

lutz wrote:- If you start out with JPEGs, TIFFS or other non-RAW files, Helicon filter will be default not overwrite your original files ( of course you can force it to do so)

Well, that was something that I ignored. There is a Save tab on the right of Retouching. This Save is non Destructive?
What about File/Save in the Menu toolbar? Is this the Destructive Save?


lutz wrote:-HF remembers all edits by default and they can be undone or changed at any time ( even after restarting the PC) since they are saved as instructions

Which file contains all these instructions? We need to backup this file so that in case of a PC crash, we can restore all these instructions.
Another question. Is it only in HF only that we can view those images that have been edited in a non-destructive way in HF?

John

lutz
Posts: 155
Joined: 14.04.2006 02:51

Unread postby lutz » 24.11.2007 20:38

Hello John,

you can set the storage place of the "settings data" according to your liking in the Preferences under Cache: Cache for settings.
By default they are located in something like:

C:\Documents and Settings\UsersDirectory\Local Settings\Application Data\Helicon\Filter\4\fsets\.....IMG.hfs

" .hfs" are the settings files.


Just entering the "SAVE" tab will only save the instructions and is non-destructive. The amazing thing is, that this is even true for the retouching operations - AFAIK unique and exclusive in HF.

John Lai
Posts: 56
Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Unread postby John Lai » 24.11.2007 20:53

lutz wrote:Hello John,

you can set the storage place of the "settings data" according to your liking in the Preferences under Cache: Cache for settings.
By default they are located in something like:

C:\Documents and Settings\UsersDirectory\Local Settings\Application Data\Helicon\Filter\4\fsets\.....IMG.hfs

" .hfs" are the settings files.


Just entering the "SAVE" tab will only save the instructions and is non-destructive. The amazing thing is, that this is even true for the retouching operations - AFAIK unique and exclusive in HF.


Hi Lutz,
Thanks a lot. I'll have a look at that.

John

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Ariel
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Unread postby Ariel » 29.11.2007 07:40

Also, there is a difference between destructive compression (save as jpeg) and non-destructive compression (png, tiff); Helicon can save as both.

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Dan Kozub
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Unread postby Dan Kozub » 29.11.2007 18:43

I would like to add that you can open edited image later and use command "Reprocess original image" to go back to the original image and change filters applied to it.

John Lai
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Unread postby John Lai » 07.12.2007 18:04

Dan Kozub wrote:I would like to add that you can open edited image later and use command "Reprocess original image" to go back to the original image and change filters applied to it.


Changes in the non-destructively edited photo can only be seen in HF.
How about making these changes visible in other photo viewing softwares?

John

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Dan Kozub
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Unread postby Dan Kozub » 07.12.2007 18:15

Save the file as a (downsized) JPEG and you will have a "preview" for other editors.
Still you can open original RAW file and modify filters if you want to change something.

John Lai
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Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Unread postby John Lai » 07.12.2007 18:37

Dan Kozub wrote:Save the file as a (downsized) JPEG and you will have a "preview" for other editors.
Still you can open original RAW file and modify filters if you want to change something.


Thanks, I know about that.
But I read somewhere in DPReview.com that there is another non destructive editor (don't remember the name) which saves the edits data in a format that other viewers can interpret. No need to save As and you can view the file full size.

John

John Lai
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Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Unread postby John Lai » 07.12.2007 19:48

John Lai wrote:But I read somewhere in DPReview.com that there is another non destructive editor (don't remember the name) which saves the edits data in a format that other viewers can interpret. No need to save As and you can view the file full size.
John


I found the post. The software is Lightzone. Here is the post.

<<It's extremely convenient. In version prior to 3 LZ used to store all XML edit history in a small .lzn sidecar file with a pointer to original file. Now, in a stroke of genius, they combined XML history with a JPEG preview that always reflects current edit state so any other image program and not only LZ can display it. You control the size of the preview file - from 1024x1024 to original size.

I use LZ as an external image editor with ACDSee Pro. Latter serves as my image manager (DAM). With lzn previews ACD always correctly reflects the current edit state. When I click on lzn file and tell to edit it, ACD starts LZ which applies all current edits to the original file in memory without affecting the original file.>>

John

John Lai
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Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Re: non-destructive

Unread postby John Lai » 08.12.2007 04:45

lutz wrote:- If you start out with JPEGs, TIFFS or other non-RAW files, Helicon filter will be default not overwrite your original files ( of course you can force it to do so)

This applies also to files that have been batch processed?

John

lutz
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Unread postby lutz » 08.12.2007 05:07

Hello John,

by default HF puts the batch-processed files in a subfolder named "filtered" and additionally changes the filename by adding the "_hf" to the end of the filename. Both measures would prohibit the overwriting of the originals .
If you want to be absolutely sure you can also uncheck the "Overwrite existing files" option in the batch dialog.

John Lai
Posts: 56
Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Unread postby John Lai » 08.12.2007 22:22

lutz wrote:Hello John,

by default HF puts the batch-processed files in a subfolder named "filtered" and additionally changes the filename by adding the "_hf" to the end of the filename. Both measures would prohibit the overwriting of the originals .
If you want to be absolutely sure you can also uncheck the "Overwrite existing files" option in the batch dialog.


Why not have a series of .hfs files instead of a series of edited files renamed by adding the "_hf" to the end of the filename? This would save a lot of disk space.
Or at least have the option of either one.

John

John Lai
Posts: 56
Joined: 09.12.2006 22:45

Unread postby John Lai » 11.01.2008 20:05

lutz wrote:Hello John,

C:\Documents and Settings\UsersDirectory\Local Settings\Application Data\Helicon\Filter\4\fsets\.....IMG.hfs

" .hfs" are the settings files.


What happens when we delete an edited file? Does it's .hfs file stays as an orphan? If so, is there a quick way of getting rid of these orphan files?

Why not "attach" the edits to the picture file itself, in the metadata for example?

John


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